Monday, July 11, 2011

One Year Sultans of OFB

It is unfortunate to note that the OFB Chairman's tenure is 12-15 months. Firse 3 months they visit the factories to know the conditions and the last 3 months they visit for farewells. Only 6 months only they try to do their own business,ignoring the productivity. The 6th Pay Commission recommended for reduction of pay scales with grade pays but not the grades. OFB allowed their Group A officers grades and reduced the grades of Supervisory staff merging the CM II with CM I and AF,SH,FM( Group B Non Gazet) with JWM ( Group B Gazet). This merger was opposed by NDNGSA and supported by AIANGO and all Federations. The then Chairman,Sri.Agarwal opposed the merger of Af with JWM, since they are having different functions in production line. This was supported by then Members of OFB. After his one year tenure, Sri.Gupta became Chairman , who supported as a Member and after becoming Chairman supported the merger to please the federations and the AIANGOassociation, ignoring the reasons of opposing the mergers of NDNGSA and announced the Merger acceptance.
After Merger the two Associations are amended their bye laws and submitted for their approval on the basis of MOD letter and GO. The MOD letter says that there is no bar on the associations of G & NG can become members in one association, but the number of associations should be not more than 2. As on date there are 3 recognised associations i.e AIANGO, NDNGSA and IOFGOA. So the last one looses their recognition on the basis of their strength. MOD asked the OFB vide their letter No.14(1)/2009/D(JCM) dated28-3-2011 asking to verify the membership of AIANGO and NNDNGSA on the basis of their membership of CM and JWMs(before merger they are AF,SH,FM) and call a meetring of these 3 associations and explain the position for their future rcognition . Here OFB is not interested to follow their instructions due their own interests.
Now OFB refused to accept their bye laws of these associations and informed MOD vide their letter No.OFB OD No.14/31/2011/A/IR dt.31.5-2011, stating that A larger number of NGOs have become GOs after the said merger and hence both associations have proposed to include those GroupB GOs also in their membership. (It seems that OFB is ignorant/pretending ignorant of the effects of the merger of group B nongazetted people with Group B gazeted people by merging with out giving any promotional financial benefits,( seems foolish)
Further OFB says that if NGO's and GO's represent the same association,administrative and functional problems may occur, since the NGOs(CMs) have to work under the supervisory and functional control of the GOs. Here OFB officials seems that they can fool the MOD by saying this, ignoring the Pay commission observations that CMs to JWMs comes under Supervisory staff only. People knows that these JWMs are re-atogorised ex-Foremans, with out any financial benefits and has to work of the ex-foreman only.(as per the OFB letter only) If the present Chairman seems knows only now, the problem and forgotten the effects before ordering the Merger. When he accepted the merger with knowing the effects on production, then why he raises hue and cry for their joining in one association is not understood and seems foolish. It is a fact that AWMs to Chairman comes one formal service association only.
Now he remembers the CCS(RSA) Rules 1993 Rule 5(c)" membership of the service associions has been restricted to a distinct category of Government services, having interest of all such government servants servants being eligible for membership of the service association". At the time of merger of these two posts with out any financial benefits, seems he lost the memory of the CCS rules and Ordered the Merger.
Now only he raised this issue of recognition of the Associations as per the MOD letter that only 2 associations permitted, since the concerned officials desires to save the IOFGOA, thus raising the issues. There is a practice that the CCS rules can be changed depending upon the changes in the structure of the government servents. As per GO, there are only Group A,B,C,D and not defined who are G and NG. The existing CMs and JWMs are coming under Group B with the basic pay of Rs.9300-34000 with GP of Rs.4200 and Rs.4600. So they can be in one association. All ready the NDNGSA already raised the same problems , if the mergers are accepted. But the present Chairman ignored and carried the Merger and raising the same problems to save IOFGOAssociation.
The NDNGSA suggested the 4 grade structure in the intgerest of the organisation.But MOD and OFB not agreed and now raising the function and production supervisory isues by OFB seems to mis guide MOD for their misdeeds in the past.
Now the retired persons suggest the following for future recruitment and promotions in the interest of the production and productivity at ordnance factories.
CM II Rs.9300-34000 basic with GP 4200 for new recruitees
CM I -do- 4600 for existing ones
FM
No.AF -do- 5400 for promotees
JWM -do- 6600 for existing and promotees.
This is the suggestions can be studied by all associations and federations and implement for better production in future.

Friday, May 27, 2011

Ordnance Factory Board Draws 6,800 crore Upgrade Plan

"The OFB has made a detailed project report about long-to submit to MOD in April for approval for up gradation plan.

Friday, May 20, 2011

Really the defence experts knows about Ordnance Factories?

It is ufortunate to observe that none of the experts talks bout Ord.factories, while discussing the Defence needs. They talk about the role of Defence PSUs and other small scale industries and their requirements and the failures of MOD which is not having any defence procurement policy and no political will etc.,No one talks about the important of Ordnance factories and the need of their improvments. The recognised trade unions and service associaions including the officers never talk about the production and productivity of these 41 factories. The Senior Officers only bother about their promotions and perks. Now a days people talks about R&D failures and the R&D claims their achievements. But OFB failed to project their achievements and their future plans periodically, to the public. The insiders says that there is no accountability, Integrity, and Leadership in the OFB. Still they are not adopted the modern corporate systems and still contimuing the old aged british systems, other than the payments. No R&D thinking, no marketing technologies. Following the MOD instructions and manufacturing the same old items with little modifictions suggested by the DRDO. It seems that they know only to manufacture the same old items with out up dating .
It is also observed that the existing group A Gazetted Officers only supervise the next below Group'B' officers and the industrial employees, with out thinking about, the organisation future and bringing the latest production modern technology.It seems that majority are lagging the quality of either technocrats or administrators. The top brass simply follows the top few federaion leaders instructions/advises to run the factorie, with out following any policies or principles.They want only industrial peace and not the production. The present Ordnance factories are running with limited number of committed workers and the supervisory staff and definetly not by the top few bosses.
It is high time for the Top Officers including the GMs to review the situation and motivate the existing Federations and Service Associaions leaders to think about production and productivity of the factories. They should maintain decipline and good clean and green surroundings of production areas The production problem should be discussed at the JCM and Works Committee, platforms along with the welfare isues. At the same time these federation/association leaders should watch and expose the corrupt and inefficient officers in the interest of the organisation.

Tuesday, April 5, 2011

ARVs Production for Indian Army

It seems that the Indian Army receing Armoured Recovery Vehicles (ARVs) from BEML from 1998 onwards. For the last 14 years, they received 352 vehicles at the cost of US $ 350 millions with out implementing the 50% indeginous clause. This issue was raised by Mr.Pinaki Mishra, MP of BJD and warned the government about the serious irregularities. He says that in the possible order worth of 1200 crore for supply of 204 vehicles likely to be placed by the MOD with BEML.
He warned the government that he is going to take up this issue in coming lok sabha, and said that these Defence PSUs are acting as an agents to the foreign countrties companies, and claiming their supplies are indian products.(refer the The Deccan Chronical,Hyderabad edition dated 3-4-2011). He claims that this BEML which has a technology transfer agreement with Polish Company M/s Bumar.He accused BEML that this PSU is acting like as an agent for Bumar and importing the ARVs for the Indian Army from Poland with hardly any indigenisation.
It is understood that this vehicle is manufactured as a proto type vehicle at Heavy Vehicles Factory ,Avadi in the past and given to Army for trials. It seem that the Army might have given orders for production/procurement of the vehicles to the private parties, with or with out the knowledge of ordnance factories.
Some of the ordnance factory employees say that they are not having enough work load in their factories and the OFB officials are not interested to take load from MOD and the concerned Federations and Associations are also not worried about the Work Load and the Production and Productivity at OFactories. On seeing the conditions of these ordnance factories, it is cler that the MOD is not interested to encourage these factories and only working for privitisation direction.
Here it is requested that the Officers and the Union leaders has to act to save their factories by working hard and save their factories through their hard work and involvement in production and productivity.

Saturday, April 2, 2011

GREETINGS

WISH YOU ALL A HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS TELUGU NEW YEAR (UGADI).
M.S.HARI

Friday, March 25, 2011

OFB Letter No.209/PIO/RTI dated 14th Sep 2010 says

The Information given by OFB for the asked information:
1.Nature of work for Industrial employees in Ordnance & Ordnance equipment factories.
A. Nature of work of IEs depends upon the trades agaianst which they are recruited and also the production items of the different ordnance facories. IEs are the lowest rung of the work force engages in the production process.They are the biggest force in a factory.
2.Nature of work for CM(T) in ordnance & ordnance equipment factories.
A.OFB is not published any Manueal showing the duties/nature of work and responsibilities of NGOs & JWMs of Ordnance factories organisation. (THIS IS HOW OFB IS WORKING FOR THE LAST 200 YEARS) However, it is informed that CM(T) is the lowest grade staff in the supervisory catogery at shop floor level and supervise the work of individuals connected directly with the production,maintainance,etc., and responsible to the production. (THEY ONLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PRODUCTION)
3.Nature of work for JWMs in Ordnance & Ordnance equipment fctories.
A. Asst.Foeeman where Asst.Foreman is the Supervisory staff to control/monitor the work of the CM(T) and even at the lowest level . JWM is the over all incharge of the shop for production and maintainance and also looking after the administration of the section and responsible to the Group A Officer. ( AF is recatorised as JWM, so there is no AF in production)
4.Name of the cadre deployed for OT and name of the cdre deployed for OT in OFs.
A. JWM,AF,FN,SH,Sr.PS, PS and their equivalent cadres are not detailed on OT.
5.Eligibility criteria for employees of OFs for working OT.
A. Eligibility cretia for the employees for working OT is regulated as per Section 59 of the Factories act 1948.
These are the information given by OFB authorities. It indictes that still we are following the 1948 British rules at Ordnance factories, where as Railways and others formed their own guide lines for OT for their bettr production. Further it is not clear that JWM is incharge of Shop Production and the same JWMs are going to report to the one day senior. But there is no Jt.GM reports to his senior Jt.GM, similarly the position of other group A Officers. But JWM has to work under other JWM of the same cadre. This is the point to be settled, which may effect the position of production. The Group A Officers, forms their own rules for the promotions/positionsf and created 8 promotional posts. But they curtailed 6 supervisory staff posts of the past to 2 , to humilitate the supervisory staff at production line and ensure that they are not going to discharage their duties in harmony. Thus creating an unrest in the production.

Private Sector was called for Establishing the Overhauling the T-72 and BMP Tsanks.

It is understood that Dir EME(Prod), Dte Gen of EME, MGO Branch, issuead a letter to the Private Parties to submit their proposals on or before 15th Feb 2010, for establishment of a Overhauling plant at North India for the Tanks.
It seems that at present that Indian Army is carrying out Overhauling of its armoured vehicles(AFVs) through its army base workshops (ABWs) as well as Ordnance factories,(HVF,OFPM,). HVF and OFPM are manufacturing of these tanks. The overhauling of T-72 were established in 1994 at HVF, and parallel facilities are created at 505 Army Base Workshop in 2005. Similar facilities for BMPs also exis at 512 Base work shop and OFPM.
Now the MOD considering to further enhance the overhaul capacity these AFVs utilising the services of experience with indian public/private industries. The want to utilise their services for 20 tanks in the first yer and 30 during the second year and 50 from third year onwards. This indicates that MOD is desires to utilise the services of private parties for only 50 tanks per a year.
It is a common knowledge that no private party willing to spend money for establishing a seperae plant for meger 50 tanks overhauling per year, with out any other orders to sustain their profits, since they are not philothropists.
Here the following questions arises :
1.Is the existing Base Work Shops and the two Ordnance factories failed to do the overhauling the tanks with their existing man power and facilities to meet the requirements of MOD ?
2.Is it the reason, the two ordnance factories are existing in south india and not at North India ?
3.Is the ordnance factories workers, the staff & Officers are in competent to do the overhauling of their produced tanks?
4.Is MOD is going to gain any financial benefits, getting done by private parties for the nation or any person?
5.Is MOD feeling that the ordnance factories workers are not upto the mark/are not interested, to carry out the overhauling the tanks. If workers are fails to do the job, then what these Officers are doing ? Can any body beliefe the producer of tanks are not capable of doing overhauling inspite of cretion of the facilities along with the production ?
Now the readers are requested to give their suggestions.

Friday, March 18, 2011

ORDNANCE FACTORIES DAY

The Ordnance factories Day was observed on 18th March 2011 through a full page dvertisement . The Addl.DGOF & Mmber Mr.S.D.Dimri says that we would like to renew our pledge to serve our great nation with deep seense of commitment and make all our efforts to provide our valiant Armoured Forces the state of the art indigenous armaments and equipments. No one knows how many people taken this pledge in Ordnance Factories, including the Officers and Supervisory Staff and the Industrial Employees.
The journey of the Indian Ordnnce Factories started more than 200 years At Cossipore, Kolkotta. There are 18 factories at the Pre Independent India. S.The oldet one is ome are AFK (1872) OEF(1869),RFI(1901), GCF(1904). The Oldest is GSF,Cossipore(1802). At present there are 39 Ordnance Factories and 2 projects at Nalanda and Korwa near Lucknow. The value production in 1951 is 1.34 crores and in the finncial year is 11,000 crores.
As per Mr.DM Gupta ,Chairman and DGOF, they are going to spend 6,800 crores for for up gradade the existing factories. He says that OFB's annual procurement budget is 8,000 crores out of which 30% was for imported components. The turn over of these fatories would be 11,000 crores this fiscal year, which is 29% higher than the last year. They export the items to the rune of 50 crores to other countries.
Sri.AK Anthony, the Defence Minister says that this is an oppurnity to Ordnance fctories to increase the scale and flexibility of Production through innovation in developing state-of-the art products.He says that Ordnance factories must also keep in mind the changing requirements of the end users - our Armed forces. Further he says that Ordnance factories should acquire ltest technological knowhow and must strive to moderinise their infrastructures.The growth momentum needs to be sustainable over a longer period by offering timely and qualittively the best delivery to our Armed Forces.
LET US HOPE THAT THE OFB AUTHORITIES WILL REALISE THEIR MISTAKES FOR THEIR WEAKING POLICY OF THE MIDDLE SUPERVISORY STAFFS PROMOTIONAL AVENUES BY RESTORING THE DUMPED 4 GRADE STRUCTURE OF SUPERVISORY STAFF AND RESTARTING THE TRAINING SCHEMES OF ARTISAN,SUPERVISORY AND OFFICERS.

Saturday, March 12, 2011

CONGRATULATIONS TO HEAVY VEHICLES FACTORY AVADI

The indigenous Arjun Tanks were inducted formally in to the Armoured Regiment at a cermony at Jaisalmer, over 37 years after the project was commissioned by the government. The Lt.General,GOC-in-C of Southern command , inducted the tank. The cermony also marked the pasage of T 55 taanks from the inventory after 40 years of realiable sourse. He said that 45 Arjun tanks were inducted.The event also marked the 39th raising day of the regiment, in which over 1000 retired officers and jawans took part. The 75 Armoured Regiment is the only indian armoured regiment to be raised on foreign soil during the 1971 Indo-Pak war at Gadra road(now in PakistanP on 12th March 1972.

Sunday, March 6, 2011

Some of the VIEWS OF NDNGSAssociation.

The says that the Ordnance Factories Board, finally accepted 6th CPC and MOD directives ,to bring down the NG Cadre to a Single Post of CHARGEMAN. They feel that their cadre suffered a lot, from these CPC's and OFB and MOD not bothered their promotional avenues and service conditions.Thus created a demoralised situation, which may effect the Production and Productivity at Ordnance factories.
They Say, that
1. 3rd PC time OFB maintained 7 promotional posts in Supervisory Cadre.i.e,
Sup.'A' ,Sup."B', CM II, CM I,AF,FM and Principal FM (T&NT).
2. 4th PC merged Sup 'A & B'
3. 5th PC merged Sup with CM II, and Recogorised FM as JWM( new Group'B'
Gazetted Created). These FMs used to draw more basic scale than AWMs.
The AWM is a Group A (G) and draws less than FM and time scaled
promotions.
4. 6th PC merged CM II with CM I and AF,F(NT), SH group B(NG) with
JWM(G) .
They say they were deprived their promotiona avenues and there is no chance to get promotions for them, after joining in CM post, during their service. At the same time they say, that there is no change in promotional avenues for IE's and Officers.
GIVE YOUR VIEWS.

Friday, March 4, 2011

Save Ordnance Factories

Some well wishers ,met the workers ,staff and the officers at different places and the following observations made by them are given below for your information.
1. The Rajyadaksha,Nair and Kelkar Committee reports are not implemented.
2.Who are responsible for not implementations of these committees reports ? Is IOFS,NGO,NIE or IE cadre ?
3.What is the role of Unions/Federations and Associations ?
4.Is there is any system to measure Accountability of the employees ?
5.Is theere is any rationaalism in increasing the number of factories? Are they meet the production requirements or on political considerations ?
6.What is the role of the Ministry ?
7.Are the users satisfied with Ofs products ?
8.Are the officers are having any control on design of products and market requirements and prizing and quality control, and is there any accountability on production and productivity?
9.Is there any ratio between officers,staff and industrial employees strength?
10.Is there any real training programmes for the staff and officers ,to understand the latest technology?
11.Is there any Transfer Policy exists ?
12.Are the factories are self sufficient and earning profits ?
WHAT PEOPLE SAY ?
1.Say that there is no committed and honest Leader at the top. The Chairman is not having any authority for production items and only follows the MOD instructions..
2.Now a days the Chairman's tenure is 8 to 18 months. He spends initial visits of the factories and then farewell visits and no time to think about of the organisation. The short lived chairmen's overlook the earlier chairman's plans to suit their ends.
3.There is no scientific prizins system and no assessing the mrket requirements.
4.The Supervisory staff feels that their promotional avenues are curtailed in every pay commissions. So they are demoralised.
5.The GM's tenure also short lived and they feel that they are not having financial powers and depends of the Accounts approvals.
6.Industrial employees feels that they are exploited by the staff and officers.
7.IOFS officers feels that they are not enjoying at par with IAS and IPS cadre.and feels that they are only working and others not.
8.The Supervisory staff feels that their promotionl avenues are reduced and the Officers promotionl avenues are increased with out any duties and responsibilities.
WHAT USERS ARE FEELING.
1.USERS are feeling that they are not getting the products in time,substandard.
2.They feel that their money is blocked by payment of advance payments.
3.They want to purchase their requirements in open market so that can get the same product in time at low costs.
REMIDIAL ACTIONS.
1.Form a committee of honest retired senior officers and ask them to study the existing conditions and suggest the remedial actions with in a frmed time.
2.These remedial actions should be endorsed by the all the existing GM's for final implementtions.
3.The committee can study the existing number of factorie who are doing similar products aand the existing ratio of the officers,staff and industrial strength and grades.
VIEWERS ARE REQUESTED TO GIVE SUGGESTIONS TO THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS: harimsv2009@yahoo.in

Monday, February 28, 2011

DO YOU KNOW about your Foremem.

Do you Know that 35 years back, there is a post called Foreman(T&NT) in our Ordnance factories. He used to be the Head of Section and taking the responsibility for his section employees and also for production and productivity of the section. Under him the Asst.Foreman, CM I & II and Supervisor 'A' & 'B" used to work. The Asso Works Managers are used to draw the basic of AF's and work under the guidance of this Foreman. No Foreman works under another Foreman. This Foreman is fully accountable for his sections production schedules and the concerned GM's used to respect and give regards for his status. At that time there are only few Officers posts exists,i.e AWM,WM, Dy.Manager, Manager and GM.
Now ths situation is changed. Are you people are happy for this situation, where there is no Work Culture and ethics and morals.
Think and advise.

Monday, February 21, 2011

PAY STRUCTURES AT ORDNANCE FACTORIES

Total Industrial Employees at Ordnance Factories.(41) Nearly 72,000.
Grades , Pay scale and Grade Pay.
1. Semi Skilled/Un Skilled. Rs.5200-20,200. Rs. 1800
2. Skilled -do- Rs.1900
3. HS II -do- Rs.2400
4. HS I/MC -do- Rs.2800
5. MACP Rs.9300-34800 Rs.4200
Techinical Supervisory Staff nearly 8,500.
1.Chargeman Rs.9300-34800. Rs.4200.
Group "B" Gazetted Officers. nearly 8500.
1.JWM Rs.9300-34800 Rs.4600.
Group "A" Gazetted Officers nearly 1500.
1. Asst.Works Manager Rs.15600-39100 Rs.5400
2. Works Manager -do- Rs.6600
3.DGM/Jt.Director -do- Rs.7600
4. Jt.GM/Director Rs.37400-67000 Rs.8700
5. Addl.GM/DDG -do- Rs.10,000
6.Sr.GM/Sr.DDG Rs.69000-80000 Rs.12,000
7. AddlDGOF/Member Rs.75000-80000 Fixed
8. DGOF/Chairman Rs.80,000 Fixed
There are nearly 4500 NIE's in the Clerical and non-technical staff.
Note:-1. No scientific ratio of industrial employees,technical supervisory cadre, and Group 'B' and 'A' Gazetted Officers.2.AWM cadre gets time scale promotion and other are not.3. CM suppose to control/guide the, IE Cadre of MACP , who draws the, same pay and grade pay. 4.Officers are having 8 promotional chances, Industrial employees are having 5 promotional chances and the Production line Supervisory is having one post i.e, CM. 6. This one CM is responsible for controlling /guiding the industrial employees and answerable to his 9 superior officers ,for any production lapses.

Friday, February 18, 2011

Measures to ImproveOrdnance Factories.

The Ordnance factories has played a creditable role in the supply of Arms,Ammunitions, Combat Vehicles and Clothinbg to the Indian Armed forces ,Navy,Air force and Para Military Forces, after Independence. Of late due to certain developments taken place, the Organisation has received set backs and lost the lustre. This has naturally lowered the morale of one and all connected with the Organisation. Now it is time to take strong measures to put the Organisation back on the track and put an end to the squabbles and make it an capable of providing latest requirements of the Armed Forces. It should be capable of reducing our dependency on imports and should be the first choice of the customers.
The following are some of the measures suggested to achieve the above role.
1. At present the IOFS is one of the last choice of the aspirants of Civil Service Examination and Engineering Services Examinations. The Government may appoint a high power committee with experts from IIM,ASCI to suggest measures for making the service result oriented aand attractive. The committee should elicit the feed back by various means like personal contact, interaction at various levels, and comparison with similar services and industries. The IOFS rules should be modified to allow highly qualified and experienced Officers enter at JAG,SAG,HAG grades on similar lines like DRDO and DGQA.
2.The Focus and prime consideration is to be the Soldier and his confort,satisfaction while using the products like arms ,ammunition and combat vehicles like tanks etc., If defects intimated then throughly investigated and remedial actions to be taken. If any persons responsible for these defects to be punished.
3.In the interest of the production , the first level of supervisory staff to be strengthened by providing suitable number of grades, to supervise and motivae the industrial employees,in the interest of production and productivity.
4.A plethora committe have been formed by OFB to define the functions,responsibility and accountability of Officers and Supervisory staff. These may be updated and orders to be issued for them to become operational with immediate effect.
5.Direct Recruitment in suitable grades of workmen,staff and officers for R&D and complicated maintainance jobs to be resorted to.
6.Material Management procedures to be revised to ensure that required material to be positioned very well in time. The GM,Addl.DGOF and DGOF should be made responsible for any lapses.
7.An energetic setup of marketing and PRO to be at OFB and units consisting of professionals recruited by open advertisement.
8. The Quality Control and Accounts Chiefs to be under the contgrol of DGOF.
9.Set up an empowered committee set up at OFB to deal with grievances and service matters.
Well Wishers are requested to send their views/suggestions to Sri.M.S.HARI, e-mail ID harimsv2009@yahoo.in for publication pleae.

Thursday, February 17, 2011

Merger of Group 'B' Posts at OFB

It is unfortunate to note that the Ordnance factory Board overlooked their own decision and ordered the merger of AF(T), F(NT) and SH (Gr.B(NG) with JWM (Gr.G) posts. By this OFB reduced the factory production level supervisor staff to one post i.e, Chargeman. Now this single Chargeman has to report to JWM and AWM,WM,DGM, Jt.GM,AGM and finally to GM of the Factory. He will be made responsible for production and productivity and the other higher officers will excape from the poor/low production, in the factories, since they are not having any accountability. It is unfortunate to note that MOD failed to do their duty of proper Cadre Review at Ordnance Factories. It is understood that th present strength of IE's at OFB nearly 70,000 and the supervisory CM's nearly 8000, the JWMs are nerly 7000 and the group A officers are nearly 1600 or more. Further it is understood that MOD treating these ordnance factories at par with DGQA like service organisations while fixing the cadres strength and grades, ignoring that Ordnance Factories are comes under the category of Industry and not a service orgnistion.